I remember my father telling me how he miraculously managed to get permit to leave the country in the 80s to work in capitalist Europe. He returned with insane fortune of like, $500, which he later spent on paying off mortgage when system fell apart in the 90s.
It’s tragic that your family had to spend that money on a mortgage because the state that provided free (or heavily subsidized) housing collapsed. Fucking capitalism, amirite?
state that provided free (or heavily subsidized) housing
You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment. My father was one of very few people who were just well enough for building a house. He was struggling with money, rationing of materials, corruption and poor quality of work, while our family of four lived in 20m2 apartment like animals in stables.
I like how you completely disregarded an account by someone who actually lived under the system you’re shlupping and immediatley attacked his character. Kinda like how christians react when you tell them Jesus wasn’t real, or Ivermectin won’t stop covid.
Just remarkable similarity.
Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don’t mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.
Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on “having to wait 20-30 years for a house?” Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?
I can’t help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m sorry that I don’t have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.
Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don’t mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.
I’m sure you wouldn’t want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor. I would hope you wouldn’t want someone to do the same to you.
Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on “having to wait 20-30 years for a house?” Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?
According to Quora the wait time was around 10 years. This person also says a family of four in a very tiny space (less than 20 sqm) was the norm. That account is pretty extensive, with contemporary illustrations to help you understand.
Russia Beyond says the wait time was 6-7 years. Apparently you couldn’t apply for an apartment if your current living situation was any better than a broom closet (must be less than 9 sqm per person.) This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years. Apparently one could buy an apartment for 10,000 rubles, while the average salary was 150-200 rubles, so about ten times the monthly salary.
Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting “More than 10 years” to upgrade, and didnt’ get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.
You know, there really does seem to be a lot of info out there about housing in the USSR, if you’re truly serious about wanting to know and not just virtue signaling I’d reccomend doing some googles and actually reading about it. Not being facetious, it’s pretty interesting.
I can’t help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m sorry that I don’t have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.
Nobody said you were morally wrong. What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.
I’m sure you wouldn’t want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor.
Just like they did to me, when they said the only thing that drew me to communism was “propaganda” as opposed to my time working under capitalism. The difference is that I discounted their unsubstantiated claims about statistical facts while they discounted my own journey.
According to Quora
According to Quora? Great, so now we have two internet randos saying something.
the wait time was around 10 years
Which is significantly less than what they claimed. So the two internet randos can’t even agree. In that case, which of them should I treat as an absolute authority and which one should I “completely disregard the experiences of out of hand” to use your pretentious language?
Russia Beyond
Finally. Say what you will about Russian state media, but at least it’s more of a source than random people on the internet, which you seem to primarily rely on.
says the wait time was 6-7 years. . . This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years.
Which completely contradicts the other user.
Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting “More than 10 years” to upgrade, and didnt’ get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.
What on earth?? “The account checks out” when they were exaggerating somewhere between 2-5 times the actual numbers?
The claim was not, “you had to wait 20-30 years for an upgrade” it was specifically "You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment." That’s completely unsupported by your sources.
What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.
It’s also the same reaction a scientist tends to have towards a flat-earther. I don’t know why you think a random internet person saying things is something that should be treated as a reliable source. If someone says, “I walked and walked for miles and the earth seemed really flat the whole way,” am I allowed to “discount their entire experience” or am I supposed to “put effort into reassessing my position” regarding the shape of the earth?
As it turns out, I was 100% right to be skeptical, because your own sources back me up and show that the other person was completely wrong.
Just like they did to me, when they said the only thing that drew me to communism was “propaganda” as opposed to my time working under capitalism. The difference is that I discounted their unsubstantiated claims about statistical facts while they discounted my own journey.
Yeah but you did it first.
According to Quora? Great, so now we have two internet randos saying something.
I mean you could get up off your butt and look yourself if you have a problem with the source I provided. Like I said there’s a wealth of information out there regarding the subject. You could also try to dispute my source instead of just dismissing it out of hand - like you did to u/Blacklazor.
Finally. Say what you will about Russian state media, but at least it’s more of a source than random people on the internet, which you seem to primarily rely on.
Ahh, so you’ll trust media from the oppressors you agree with. So basically you’re a tankie equvalent of MAGA.
What on earth?? “The account checks out” when they were exaggerating somewhere between 2-5 times the actual numbers?
So you didn’t actually read anymore about the subject, right? Why am I not suprised.
The claim was not, “you had to wait 20-30 years for an upgrade” it was specifically “You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment.” That’s completely unsupported by your sources.
Read the rest of that paragraph please. I’ll post it here to make it easy for you.
You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment. My father was one of very few people who were just well enough for building a house. He was struggling with money, rationing of materials, corruption and poor quality of work, while our family of four lived in 20m2 apartment like animals in stables.
I.e. His family of four lived in a 20 sqm apartment (less than 9sqm per person) and would have to wait 20-30 years to get a “piss poor commie block apartment.” I don’t think it’s unreasonable to characterize “waiting 20-30 years” as “never.” Now if you’d read the sources I posted you’d see this aligns very closely with what is described - that being most people who weren’t rich or connected to an oligarch had to wait more than 10 years for an apartment. I even found a source that broke it down into a nice and helpful chart - see if you can find that source yourself.
I mean, I know you won’t becuase this hands your ass to your arguement on a sliver platter with a side of trimmings, and if there’s one thing people like you can’t stand it’s being proved wrong, bu whatever.
As it turns out, I was 100% right to be skeptical, because your own sources back me up and show that the other person was completely wrong.
Except in real life it wasn’t, what u/blacklazor described aligns pretty well with the accounts on both pages, and other sources you will find if you just quit being lazy and put in the effort.
Skipping the rest of the bullshit you posted for my own mental health. There is a wealth of information that you can get with a few simple googles, please read up and stop embarassing yourself.
The small island country that’s being threatened and economically isolated by the most powerful and militaristic country on earth? Not my first choice.
Why do anti-communists always suggest moving directly into the crosshairs of imperialism?
Funny enough, I recently bought a house for relatives in Belgrade.
Like East Germany, the most desirable buildings currently are those commie block apartments (known in Yugoslavia as “army buildings”). Because they were built well and to be used, not just as cheaply as possible to make the quick buck.
while our family of four lived in 20m2 apartment like animals in stables.
How many square meters do you think the vast population of working homeless in the US (ostensibly the richest capitalist country) have?
Or do you want to discuss the current homeownership rate in China?
Dogshit healthcare being decades behind that in the west/
free education to the highest level
Education was dogshit lacking the basic necessities, in building falling apart.
guaranteed job
Most jobs were completely unnecessary. They provided nothing of value.
heavily subsidized foodstuffs
Rationed. Not subsidized. You couldn’t just go and buy a fucking bread, or a bar of chocolate, or sugar, or flour, or a washing machine, or TV or a car. Your money was almost worthless. Food stamps were worth more than the money you paid for the food. If you manage to be super lucky and get permit to buy a new car, you could resell it immediately for 2x or even 3x of nominal price. and it wasn’t a good car, it was this piece of shit.
It’s actually funny that this ‘wonderful’ system couldn’t design their own car, and had to resort into buying a design license for utterly outdated modified fiat 500 from filthy capitalist Italy.
0% inflation over a span of 40 years
FUCKING LIES. Check the black market dollar value to see the actual scale of inflation that was happening.
I literally searched and found the data to prove you wrong:
THIS is life expectancy of Poland, since 50s. This is life expectancy in America for the same period.
Throughout almost the entire period America had better life expectancy than Communist Poland. You can even see the upward trend after 1990 in PL once capitalism got introduced and medicine started to catch up with the West.
Cuba, CUBA, has higher life expectancy expectancy than the US
WTF are you talking about, they’re the same, with Cuba being horribly lower in 50s and 60s
You’re literally bullshitting
No you, are.
USSR at the time had the highest number of doctors per capita on earth.
But they couldn’t build sophisticated medical equipment in sufficient numbers. It’s the same story as with cars. The economy was disfunctional as fuck. And poland cooked the books about employment and inflation hard, USSR probably did too.
I’m not going to engage in debate with someone who quotes fake data like “0% inflation” and such. You bought into a cult of lies and deception
Transformation just uncovered all the lies and sins of previous communist system. Once state run enterprises were allowed to file banktruptcy 30% of them failed immediately. Country was also hit by hyperinflation like a hammer because previous system was printing money like crazy and “fixing” it by price controls and food rationing.
I remember my father telling me how he miraculously managed to get permit to leave the country in the 80s to work in capitalist Europe. He returned with insane fortune of like, $500, which he later spent on paying off mortgage when system fell apart in the 90s.
It’s tragic that your family had to spend that money on a mortgage because the state that provided free (or heavily subsidized) housing collapsed. Fucking capitalism, amirite?
You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment. My father was one of very few people who were just well enough for building a house. He was struggling with money, rationing of materials, corruption and poor quality of work, while our family of four lived in 20m2 apartment like animals in stables.
Oh no, the free housing isn’t fast enough or big enough, oh no, it looks so drab oh no
What did capitalism do for you? How long do you have to wait now to spend 3% of your income on housing instead of 30%+?
I like how you completely disregarded an account by someone who actually lived under the system you’re shlupping and immediatley attacked his character. Kinda like how christians react when you tell them Jesus wasn’t real, or Ivermectin won’t stop covid.
Just remarkable similarity.
Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don’t mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.
Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on “having to wait 20-30 years for a house?” Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?
I can’t help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m sorry that I don’t have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.
I’m sure you wouldn’t want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor. I would hope you wouldn’t want someone to do the same to you.
According to Quora the wait time was around 10 years. This person also says a family of four in a very tiny space (less than 20 sqm) was the norm. That account is pretty extensive, with contemporary illustrations to help you understand.
Russia Beyond says the wait time was 6-7 years. Apparently you couldn’t apply for an apartment if your current living situation was any better than a broom closet (must be less than 9 sqm per person.) This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years. Apparently one could buy an apartment for 10,000 rubles, while the average salary was 150-200 rubles, so about ten times the monthly salary.
Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting “More than 10 years” to upgrade, and didnt’ get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.
You know, there really does seem to be a lot of info out there about housing in the USSR, if you’re truly serious about wanting to know and not just virtue signaling I’d reccomend doing some googles and actually reading about it. Not being facetious, it’s pretty interesting.
Nobody said you were morally wrong. What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.
Just like they did to me, when they said the only thing that drew me to communism was “propaganda” as opposed to my time working under capitalism. The difference is that I discounted their unsubstantiated claims about statistical facts while they discounted my own journey.
According to Quora? Great, so now we have two internet randos saying something.
Which is significantly less than what they claimed. So the two internet randos can’t even agree. In that case, which of them should I treat as an absolute authority and which one should I “completely disregard the experiences of out of hand” to use your pretentious language?
Finally. Say what you will about Russian state media, but at least it’s more of a source than random people on the internet, which you seem to primarily rely on.
Which completely contradicts the other user.
What on earth?? “The account checks out” when they were exaggerating somewhere between 2-5 times the actual numbers?
The claim was not, “you had to wait 20-30 years for an upgrade” it was specifically "You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment." That’s completely unsupported by your sources.
It’s also the same reaction a scientist tends to have towards a flat-earther. I don’t know why you think a random internet person saying things is something that should be treated as a reliable source. If someone says, “I walked and walked for miles and the earth seemed really flat the whole way,” am I allowed to “discount their entire experience” or am I supposed to “put effort into reassessing my position” regarding the shape of the earth?
As it turns out, I was 100% right to be skeptical, because your own sources back me up and show that the other person was completely wrong.
Yeah but you did it first.
I mean you could get up off your butt and look yourself if you have a problem with the source I provided. Like I said there’s a wealth of information out there regarding the subject. You could also try to dispute my source instead of just dismissing it out of hand - like you did to u/Blacklazor.
Ahh, so you’ll trust media from the oppressors you agree with. So basically you’re a tankie equvalent of MAGA.
So you didn’t actually read anymore about the subject, right? Why am I not suprised.
Read the rest of that paragraph please. I’ll post it here to make it easy for you.
I.e. His family of four lived in a 20 sqm apartment (less than 9sqm per person) and would have to wait 20-30 years to get a “piss poor commie block apartment.” I don’t think it’s unreasonable to characterize “waiting 20-30 years” as “never.” Now if you’d read the sources I posted you’d see this aligns very closely with what is described - that being most people who weren’t rich or connected to an oligarch had to wait more than 10 years for an apartment. I even found a source that broke it down into a nice and helpful chart - see if you can find that source yourself.
I mean, I know you won’t becuase this hands your ass to your arguement on a sliver platter with a side of trimmings, and if there’s one thing people like you can’t stand it’s being proved wrong, bu whatever.
Except in real life it wasn’t, what u/blacklazor described aligns pretty well with the accounts on both pages, and other sources you will find if you just quit being lazy and put in the effort.
Skipping the rest of the bullshit you posted for my own mental health. There is a wealth of information that you can get with a few simple googles, please read up and stop embarassing yourself.
You really should go to Cuba and stay there. Why change current system if you can just travel and live in your dream paradise?
The small island country that’s being threatened and economically isolated by the most powerful and militaristic country on earth? Not my first choice.
Why do anti-communists always suggest moving directly into the crosshairs of imperialism?
Then go to Noth Korea, I don’t care
Funny enough, I recently bought a house for relatives in Belgrade.
Like East Germany, the most desirable buildings currently are those commie block apartments (known in Yugoslavia as “army buildings”). Because they were built well and to be used, not just as cheaply as possible to make the quick buck.
How many square meters do you think the vast population of working homeless in the US (ostensibly the richest capitalist country) have?
Or do you want to discuss the current homeownership rate in China?
deleted by creator
No. They’re so poor that $500 looks like a fortune
deleted by creator
Dogshit healthcare being decades behind that in the west/
Education was dogshit lacking the basic necessities, in building falling apart.
Most jobs were completely unnecessary. They provided nothing of value.
Rationed. Not subsidized. You couldn’t just go and buy a fucking bread, or a bar of chocolate, or sugar, or flour, or a washing machine, or TV or a car. Your money was almost worthless. Food stamps were worth more than the money you paid for the food. If you manage to be super lucky and get permit to buy a new car, you could resell it immediately for 2x or even 3x of nominal price. and it wasn’t a good car, it was this piece of shit.
It’s actually funny that this ‘wonderful’ system couldn’t design their own car, and had to resort into buying a design license for utterly outdated modified fiat 500 from filthy capitalist Italy.
FUCKING LIES. Check the black market dollar value to see the actual scale of inflation that was happening.
deleted by creator
I literally searched and found the data to prove you wrong:
THIS is life expectancy of Poland, since 50s. This is life expectancy in America for the same period.
Throughout almost the entire period America had better life expectancy than Communist Poland. You can even see the upward trend after 1990 in PL once capitalism got introduced and medicine started to catch up with the West.
WTF are you talking about, they’re the same, with Cuba being horribly lower in 50s and 60s
No you, are.
But they couldn’t build sophisticated medical equipment in sufficient numbers. It’s the same story as with cars. The economy was disfunctional as fuck. And poland cooked the books about employment and inflation hard, USSR probably did too.
I’m not going to engage in debate with someone who quotes fake data like “0% inflation” and such. You bought into a cult of lies and deception
deleted by creator
So he spent all of it on the failings of capitalism in the 90s?
Transformation just uncovered all the lies and sins of previous communist system. Once state run enterprises were allowed to file banktruptcy 30% of them failed immediately. Country was also hit by hyperinflation like a hammer because previous system was printing money like crazy and “fixing” it by price controls and food rationing.
Funny, I grew up by the Mexican border. Want to know how hard it is to get a permit to work in the US?