It’s almost like the situation in the ME is exceptionally nuanced and no amount of armchair discussions on social media are going to explain or resolve it.
I’m saying this as a non-Jew who married a Jew and had 3 kids with her.
The situation in Gaza is not nuanced. There’s a genocide happening there - the single worst crime possible. There’s no nuance, it’s as extreme and clear cut as it is possible to be.
Talking about it on the internet is important, because ideas can spread.
This isn’t about Jewish identity. It’s about a state committing genocide on another state.
Sorry to fire back at you like this, but I really don’t know what you’re trying to achieve with your comment, and it didn’t make sense to me.
I guess it depends on what concepts you are willing to let go of. If you think Jews have some kind of holy right to land occupied by other people, yes, things are goig to be complicated because you also want to protect your ability to think of yourself as a good person, and that precludes you from supporting ethnic cleansing and genocide
If, on the other hand, you see Israel as a settler-colonial project no morally different than the Dutch in South Africa or the British in North America or the Spanish is South America or the Belgians in the Congo, it becomes a much easier ethical calculus.
There are plenty of Jews who view Israel as the latter, and the fact an identity “makes things complicated,” points to self-interested decision. Just like being white makes the concept of removing barriers to employment by black people “complicated”, or being a man might make supporting female rape victims “complicated.” The fact that a choice might not benefit a group you identify with is not an argument in favor.
And, yeah, nobody should listen to “as a mischling jew.” That’s 1/4th Jewish.
Plenty of Jewish people interpret the slogan and promise Never again to refer to all genocide, not just that committed against Jews. Israel has been committing human atrocities for a while now, but under the authoritarian Netanyahu administration, they’ve burned the nuance right out.
Israel has become the monster it was once afraid of, and once promised never to be.
Israel has become the monster it was once afraid of, and once promised never to be.
I am sorry to inform you that it never promised that. On the contrary, from its outset Zionism has been a colonial project fundamentally premised on the displacement, dispossession, and ultimately genocide of the Palestinian people.
The language of colonialism hadn't gone out of style yet when they started, so Zionist writing in the 19th and first half of the 20th century was much clearer about it:
[It is the] iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else – or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not “difficult”, not “dangerous” but IMPOSSIBLE! … Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonialization. - Ze’ev Jabotinsky
Note also that from the beginning there has been strong Jewish opposition to Zionism, starting with opposition by Jews who were living peacefully there and wanted nothing to do with the project.
There are many, many, many Jews that feel their culture and their right to exist is under attack and the actions are justified and those walls they have built are there for good reason and exist over hundreds if not thousands of years of persecution.
This in no way makes it right and I agree with you, but we need to acknowledge the conversation comes with a history that is extremely loaded and I’d argue many of us are not in a position to fully cover the nuance.
I love the anger I get back for simply stating this.
That’s fair, and I’m sympathetic to that fear and that concern, but for all the nuance of how it got to this point and why there’s still too much support, I do think that the reality as it has become has removed all nuance from the situation as it currently stands.
Israeli soldiers are engaging in genocide with all the gleeful torture and killing that is associated with the crime. They need to be stopped, leadership needs to be punished, and the everyday people need to be deradicalized.
A lot of people’s anger at the calls for nuance comes from the fact that we keep being told there’s nuance and that we need to be sympathetic to israel as they commit horrifying crimes and not only is nothing done to stop them, people in western nations are being prevented from stopping our governments and institutions’ assistance to them.
feel their culture and their right to exist is under attack and the actions are justified
And I feel like I deserve a harem that sucks my dick every hour. That doesn’t make me nuanced, it makes me a dumbass. Pretending like the history matters at all is just a way of justifying evil actions to yourself.
It’s almost like the situation in the ME is exceptionally nuanced and no amount of armchair discussions on social media are going to explain or resolve it.
I’m saying this as a non-Jew who married a Jew and had 3 kids with her.
The situation in Gaza is not nuanced. There’s a genocide happening there - the single worst crime possible. There’s no nuance, it’s as extreme and clear cut as it is possible to be.
Talking about it on the internet is important, because ideas can spread.
This isn’t about Jewish identity. It’s about a state committing genocide on another state.
Sorry to fire back at you like this, but I really don’t know what you’re trying to achieve with your comment, and it didn’t make sense to me.
Condemning settler colonialism is pretty simple. Maybe you’re overthinking it?
Nobody cares who you married, and I’m saying this as a mischling jew.
I listen to a lot of Jewish comedians, does my opinion count?
Depends how many of them are named Jerry Seinfeld, I guess 🤷🏻
Is one of them Herschel Shmoikel Pinchas Yerucham Krustofsky?
And believe it or not I agree with you but that said it’s not so cut and dry and if you were Jewish you would understand that much.
And being clear no one cares that you’re a mischling Jew, and I’m saying this as a Canadian.
I guess it depends on what concepts you are willing to let go of. If you think Jews have some kind of holy right to land occupied by other people, yes, things are goig to be complicated because you also want to protect your ability to think of yourself as a good person, and that precludes you from supporting ethnic cleansing and genocide
If, on the other hand, you see Israel as a settler-colonial project no morally different than the Dutch in South Africa or the British in North America or the Spanish is South America or the Belgians in the Congo, it becomes a much easier ethical calculus.
There are plenty of Jews who view Israel as the latter, and the fact an identity “makes things complicated,” points to self-interested decision. Just like being white makes the concept of removing barriers to employment by black people “complicated”, or being a man might make supporting female rape victims “complicated.” The fact that a choice might not benefit a group you identify with is not an argument in favor.
And, yeah, nobody should listen to “as a mischling jew.” That’s 1/4th Jewish.
Personally speaking they should pave over the entire ME. No one is showing they have the maturity to live there so take it away from everyone.
That said, not possible lol
Plenty of Jewish people interpret the slogan and promise Never again to refer to all genocide, not just that committed against Jews. Israel has been committing human atrocities for a while now, but under the authoritarian Netanyahu administration, they’ve burned the nuance right out.
Israel has become the monster it was once afraid of, and once promised never to be.
I am sorry to inform you that it never promised that. On the contrary, from its outset Zionism has been a colonial project fundamentally premised on the displacement, dispossession, and ultimately genocide of the Palestinian people.
The language of colonialism hadn't gone out of style yet when they started, so Zionist writing in the 19th and first half of the 20th century was much clearer about it:
See also Jewish Colonisation Association, Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, Jewish Colonial Trust, Zionism as settler colonialism, …
Note also that from the beginning there has been strong Jewish opposition to Zionism, starting with opposition by Jews who were living peacefully there and wanted nothing to do with the project.
What is nuanced about shooting starving children in bread lines and bombing hospitals? Please enlighten me.
There are many, many, many Jews that feel their culture and their right to exist is under attack and the actions are justified and those walls they have built are there for good reason and exist over hundreds if not thousands of years of persecution.
This in no way makes it right and I agree with you, but we need to acknowledge the conversation comes with a history that is extremely loaded and I’d argue many of us are not in a position to fully cover the nuance.
I love the anger I get back for simply stating this.
That’s fair, and I’m sympathetic to that fear and that concern, but for all the nuance of how it got to this point and why there’s still too much support, I do think that the reality as it has become has removed all nuance from the situation as it currently stands.
Israeli soldiers are engaging in genocide with all the gleeful torture and killing that is associated with the crime. They need to be stopped, leadership needs to be punished, and the everyday people need to be deradicalized.
A lot of people’s anger at the calls for nuance comes from the fact that we keep being told there’s nuance and that we need to be sympathetic to israel as they commit horrifying crimes and not only is nothing done to stop them, people in western nations are being prevented from stopping our governments and institutions’ assistance to them.
And I feel like I deserve a harem that sucks my dick every hour. That doesn’t make me nuanced, it makes me a dumbass. Pretending like the history matters at all is just a way of justifying evil actions to yourself.
Why is it impossible to discuss important things with people who act like fucking children? Maybe because they are? 🤷♂️
Anyways neither of us are solving this problem so I’m dipping out of trying to have a discussion with a dumbass. Your words not mine.