The system definitely encourages and rewards explotation, but why do people do it at all? Will this behaviour stop if we penalize it? Or just gently teach the children after the bloody revolution?
How do we get past the notion of power corrupting people? All I’m arguing is that communism is not an outright solution for society.
I promise to read up on dialectic materialism, but the end of link you sent mentions getting a gun. That’s just bad advice.
Hey, I’m the one who made the list Edie linked. What’s wrong with getting a gun, exactly? In an ideal world it wouldn’t be necessary, but we don’t live in an ideal world.
As for “power corrupting people,” that doesn’t actually exist, that’s just a catch-all reason for any time a leader of something does something wrong.
Hey, I’m kinda in the middle of trying to dismantle my illusions, so if you can point out inconsistencies, please do.
So the gun advice immediately sent me down this doomsday path in my mind, where it makes sense to hoard medication and vitamins. Also it has a feeling of call to a standing army. I might also be terminally pacifistic and feel that a few dogs and floodlights can take care of most defense in all but the most dire of situations. You are right in that I would rather see comrades armed than the current governmental security agents, but I don’t trust that much power to really anyone. The idea feels weird that they can end an argument very quickly if they wanted to. I don’t want to live in a world, where we need to keep and use weapons to feel safe.
Why do you say that power corrupting doesn’t exist? I guess I haven’t seen any papers on the matter, but it does seem to be ingrained into our common psyche. On the solarpunk subreddit we were talking about how the finite game will always win out on the infinite one. I know corruption isn’t insant and there is a combo where we can have a common win, but that seems heavily in the idealistic territories.
One of my main arguments is some pop-psych, which states it is easier to fight for your truth than to live it. It feels like a time to collectively get our shit together at home and bring that to the streets. I know communism is about equal rights as well, so someone who grew up in an abusive relationship will find that natural and search for that feeling. If things are not tip-top at home, we will have some elements in the collective that will bring destruction.
I know society is set up to hang societal problems on the individual, but if I’m looking at the big picture, I feel the total opposite of empowered. It seems the most power I have is over my own decisions, and the best I can do is reign in my emotions and concentrate of me not sabotaging myself. There is probably great literature out there that deals with my exact dilemma, but I have yet to read it.
And just as a side not, in our original discussion I kinda felt waved away and talked down to. I am definitely prone to victimization, but the triggers are coming from the world. You are right that more literature on the subject at hand would do me wonders, but being sympathetic (and not totally unknowledgable) to the cause, it made me wonder if I’m talking to a tankie.
For guns, revolution is a necessity to move to Socialism. Pacifism for the Working Class against a Class that will not and has never hesitated to use force is acceptance of the status quo. This is unfortunate, but is reality.
As for the idea of “power corrupting,” it’s more that it isn’t an actual explanation for why some structures work and others don’t, kinda like the Greeks believing the gods did everything. It’s superstition, and doesn’t have any bearing on a real, materialist analysis.
Really, the bulk of my issues with your comments is that they deal overwhelmingly with individuals, rather than focusing on structures and material reality. Ideas are shaped by matter, not the inverse, ergo you must focus chiefly on the material (that’s peaking a bit into Dialectical Materialism).
As for the “tankie” jab, in my opinion that word is meaningless. I’m a Communist, a Marxist-Leninist, etc, make of that what you will. I am the most common and historically relevent strain of Marxist thought, and while I have my own little nuances, I am not far from that general norm.
I was debating using the word at all, I just wanted to point out how I interpreted the message. The only reason I dared use it, is that you picked up this thread in a gentler tone (which just confirmed that you are not pushing agenda).
As I mentioned to our colleague in this thread, I do want to dip my toes in the basics of dialectic materialism, so excuse me if all of this has been discussed to the bone. I understand how we are (also) products of our surrounding, and matter can shape mind. My main argument here is that we also shape matter. So the direction goes both ways. If I am not convinced of my truth, I shall be swayed, thus I have to make sure that when I speak, I speak the truth to the best of my knowledge. If I have hangups, I might push for something faulty. Something that based on my perspective should be a natural part of life, a given, but is actually just a neurosis. So you are definitely picking up the vibes that I see the solution at home.
Anyhow, thank you for getting back to me. I’d love to discuss the topic further, but maybe I’m not ready for a proper debate of (or devil’s advocating against) communism.
The concept of matter shaping ideas that then reshape matter into reshaping ideas in endless spirals is Dialectical Materialism, actually. I’m not denying that ideas are important, but they are not primary.
For what it’s worth, I do have an “agenda,” I’m a Communist. I want Communism, and I want to create more Communists, that’s why I made that reading list. Communism isn’t an intellectual fascination, but an ideology surrounding working class liberation.
If you want to dip your toes, Principles of Communism is a great start, maybe try reading section 1 of my reading list and watching the Parenti Lecture as well if you want to see Communism in context.
The system definitely encourages and rewards explotation, but why do people do it at all? Will this behaviour stop if we penalize it? Or just gently teach the children after the bloody revolution?
How do we get past the notion of power corrupting people? All I’m arguing is that communism is not an outright solution for society.
I promise to read up on dialectic materialism, but the end of link you sent mentions getting a gun. That’s just bad advice.
Hey, I’m the one who made the list Edie linked. What’s wrong with getting a gun, exactly? In an ideal world it wouldn’t be necessary, but we don’t live in an ideal world.
As for “power corrupting people,” that doesn’t actually exist, that’s just a catch-all reason for any time a leader of something does something wrong.
Hey, I’m kinda in the middle of trying to dismantle my illusions, so if you can point out inconsistencies, please do.
So the gun advice immediately sent me down this doomsday path in my mind, where it makes sense to hoard medication and vitamins. Also it has a feeling of call to a standing army. I might also be terminally pacifistic and feel that a few dogs and floodlights can take care of most defense in all but the most dire of situations. You are right in that I would rather see comrades armed than the current governmental security agents, but I don’t trust that much power to really anyone. The idea feels weird that they can end an argument very quickly if they wanted to. I don’t want to live in a world, where we need to keep and use weapons to feel safe.
Why do you say that power corrupting doesn’t exist? I guess I haven’t seen any papers on the matter, but it does seem to be ingrained into our common psyche. On the solarpunk subreddit we were talking about how the finite game will always win out on the infinite one. I know corruption isn’t insant and there is a combo where we can have a common win, but that seems heavily in the idealistic territories.
One of my main arguments is some pop-psych, which states it is easier to fight for your truth than to live it. It feels like a time to collectively get our shit together at home and bring that to the streets. I know communism is about equal rights as well, so someone who grew up in an abusive relationship will find that natural and search for that feeling. If things are not tip-top at home, we will have some elements in the collective that will bring destruction.
I know society is set up to hang societal problems on the individual, but if I’m looking at the big picture, I feel the total opposite of empowered. It seems the most power I have is over my own decisions, and the best I can do is reign in my emotions and concentrate of me not sabotaging myself. There is probably great literature out there that deals with my exact dilemma, but I have yet to read it.
And just as a side not, in our original discussion I kinda felt waved away and talked down to. I am definitely prone to victimization, but the triggers are coming from the world. You are right that more literature on the subject at hand would do me wonders, but being sympathetic (and not totally unknowledgable) to the cause, it made me wonder if I’m talking to a tankie.
For guns, revolution is a necessity to move to Socialism. Pacifism for the Working Class against a Class that will not and has never hesitated to use force is acceptance of the status quo. This is unfortunate, but is reality.
As for the idea of “power corrupting,” it’s more that it isn’t an actual explanation for why some structures work and others don’t, kinda like the Greeks believing the gods did everything. It’s superstition, and doesn’t have any bearing on a real, materialist analysis.
Really, the bulk of my issues with your comments is that they deal overwhelmingly with individuals, rather than focusing on structures and material reality. Ideas are shaped by matter, not the inverse, ergo you must focus chiefly on the material (that’s peaking a bit into Dialectical Materialism).
As for the “tankie” jab, in my opinion that word is meaningless. I’m a Communist, a Marxist-Leninist, etc, make of that what you will. I am the most common and historically relevent strain of Marxist thought, and while I have my own little nuances, I am not far from that general norm.
I was debating using the word at all, I just wanted to point out how I interpreted the message. The only reason I dared use it, is that you picked up this thread in a gentler tone (which just confirmed that you are not pushing agenda).
As I mentioned to our colleague in this thread, I do want to dip my toes in the basics of dialectic materialism, so excuse me if all of this has been discussed to the bone. I understand how we are (also) products of our surrounding, and matter can shape mind. My main argument here is that we also shape matter. So the direction goes both ways. If I am not convinced of my truth, I shall be swayed, thus I have to make sure that when I speak, I speak the truth to the best of my knowledge. If I have hangups, I might push for something faulty. Something that based on my perspective should be a natural part of life, a given, but is actually just a neurosis. So you are definitely picking up the vibes that I see the solution at home.
Anyhow, thank you for getting back to me. I’d love to discuss the topic further, but maybe I’m not ready for a proper debate of (or devil’s advocating against) communism.
The concept of matter shaping ideas that then reshape matter into reshaping ideas in endless spirals is Dialectical Materialism, actually. I’m not denying that ideas are important, but they are not primary.
For what it’s worth, I do have an “agenda,” I’m a Communist. I want Communism, and I want to create more Communists, that’s why I made that reading list. Communism isn’t an intellectual fascination, but an ideology surrounding working class liberation.
If you want to dip your toes, Principles of Communism is a great start, maybe try reading section 1 of my reading list and watching the Parenti Lecture as well if you want to see Communism in context.