So it’s a bit of a catch22 situation… Shutdown the government by blocking the new CR or have the government demolished by accepting the new CR …
But the government will get derailed regardless.
The one thing that seems to be overlooked is that the Democrats are supposed to give opposition/resistance to the Republican plans, which does mean blocking a bad new proposal …
If it were up to me I’d use whatever media I can find and prior to the vote just loudly announce being against the new regulations, so just pre-empt republican fingerpoiting and take the sting out of their shutdown accusations…
Not to me. Its like a trolley problem where if you do nothing someone dies but if you flip it has the exact same outcome. Seems obvious that its better to not have a hand in it.
I would rather shut down the government than allow the changes to who controls the money.
If Democrats vote yes on this then the spending power of congress gets handed to Trump/Musk.
If this passes then congress no longer has control of tax dollars
To go stand on his soap box and talk a big game a couple days ago, and then pull this bullshit is just a slap in the face. This screams collusion or bribery or some other shady shit. It used to be a conspiracy theory to say this, but, there ain’t two parties. Its one party and a few outliers that aren’t invited to the party.
As a non US person, it is deeply sad to read this two party crap even at this advanced stage of the collapse of your country. When are you lot going to learn that you already don’t have an impartial head of state, you don’t have impartial supreme court. Everything is political in USA. So you really fcking want to make sure you have more than 3 parties. You’re still not thinking outside the box, and you’re keeping this us them dynamic alive.
With the weaponisation of the DOJ, the dems have Kompromat on them too. They are all scared. They are all walking the same line. That’s why Bernie is so powerful, and people are doubting if AOC is up for the job.
The GOP is infected by Trump and anything from the McCain era is long gone. The DEMs have failed to lead since Obama. There are no two parties left. There is a carcass of an old political establishment leftover, and the only guy saying anything that makes sense is a geriatric that can drop dead any day.
Two parties will always get you to this kind of impasse. Truly saddening to see the lack of creative political thinking on a progressive platform like Lemmy.
What exactly do you expect us to do besides a violent revolt?
…what do you mean ‘besides’?
Violent revolt and sign an improved constitution
It’s a fine idea and despite being a longshot it’s probably the only way anything good ever happens in America again, but a word to the wise:
You go into a revolution with the people you’ve got, not just the people who have their head on straight. The ideological mix of America currently isn’t the group I’d pick for outlining the underpinnings of a new republic.
Not saying a revolt is a bad idea even, just making the point that we live in an imperfect world, and politics make for strange bedfellows. The sheer geophysical fact of North America means the rift between urban and rural can never be truly reconciled.
But it can be minimized, ideally a new US would go back to see if we can rework the Articles of Confederation with some lessons learned from the EU. The states have largely settled into their borders and I suspect that the stupid competition that caused the Articles to fail could be corrected. Also we really need to prevent centralization of powers into the Federal government and the executive from ever happening again.
Back in colonial times it was very feasible to keep the executive in check. Nowadays it is a technological fact that the executive needs nuclear authority just to be in a position to make a timely counterstrike effort.
At least, this was the dogma last I checked, maybe there is enough interdiction capability now to change this dynamic. I would be delighted to learn otherwise, but given the necessity of secrecy in these things any evidence must be compelling.
That said - Until the logic of MAD ceases to prevail, there is an insane sort of game theory rationale for an executive with extensive powers, regrettably. It’s hard to see how to get past the eventual nuclear war scenario without a one world government. With nukes we are walking a tightrope, but we cannot reasonably expect to do so indefinitely.
You could still have an elected commander in chief, just don’t invest so much civil power into them. They don’t need to have control over every fucking governmental department.
I’m only pointing out that nukes are fundamentally a threat to the rule of law. We can’t invent a world without them just yet, but we should at least think of them as a systemic threat to the world we’re trying to create
In their infinite wisdom our forefathers gave us a winner take all system, and when you only have one winner you get a two party system or minority rule. It’s just maths.
Ranked choice voting would certainly help.
No doubt, but it would require a huge effort across all fifty states and has already failed a bunch of times.
I’ll be dead before we have ranked choice voting. And I’m not even that old.
To have a real winner the president needs 270 voices in the electoral college, if a third party won enough States that wouldn’t happen, what then?
Same in the Senate and Congress, if neither the Democrats or the Republicans have enough seats to have a majority because of a third party, they’ll need to work with that party.
Just because it’s not part of the culture it doesn’t mean it can’t happen and that politicians won’t have to deal with it if it does.
And this is how you get folks to stay home on the couch in 2026.
And then yell at them in comment sections when the democrats lose to fascists again.
If you don’t vote for them… They will lose…
They’re not a hockey team where it doesn’t matter if you participate as a fan or not. If they don’t get votes then they don’t get political power.
And what is the difference between them winning and losing? I’ve been voting for them for years and hating it every time and getting nothing but excuses.
And what is the difference between them winning and losing?
Are you fucking joking?
I’m frustrated. Democrats win and don’t get anything done because of republicans and then lose and don’t bother resisting the republicans.
Republicans make things worse, of course , but democrats don’t or can’t make things better.
I’m frustrated.
Of course you are. As am I. But that doesn’t mean I’m willing to just “give up.” Yes I’ll vote against Trump at all chance even if it means I’ll lose. Because I may not.
I don’t want a leader who is fucking exciting or a firebrand. I just want a competent administrator who treats the nation as something to be preserved. And that’s a hard sell against a cheap auto-salesman like Trump.
Republicans make things worse, of course , but democrats don’t or can’t make things better.
But those are the only two options. So you pick a democrat and hope for the best.
If the democrats are the best we can hope for then we are well and truly boned.
And how much longer am I gonna have to hold my nose and vote for an asshole I hate before they get enough power to mean I don’t have to?
Will I be dead before I can actually vote for someone I want to be in office? And even then will they have a stroke and start schlonging conservative dick?
Politics is a game designed to be so infuriating that most people rage quit.
You’re saying this in a thread about a Democrat who won. What is the difference of Chuck Schumer was there or not? It seems to be the same result either way.
Do you know how Congress works? I’m trying to determine if I have to explain what a “majority” means or not.
Oh yes here we go another comment about if they don’t have a complete and total majority that they have no power whatsoever. What fucking bunk. He was elected as a senator by the people of the state of New York. He has a solemn and sacred duty to serve those people. It doesn’t matter if other people didn’t win election it’s still his fucking job. If he can’t fucking do it he should resign as should the rest of the useless parasites in that party who don’t feel they have any responsibilities left to the public.
What a useless party this is and what useless people who are loyal to it.
The complete destruction of civil rights, a stable state, trade relations, diplomatic relations, the integrity of elections, the actual health if the nation, so on and so on.
The complete destruction of civil rights
We lost Roe under Biden’s watch
a stable state
The Memphis police department got COVID money from Congress that went into the pockets of the officers who beat Tyre Nichols to death on Biden’s watch
diplomatic relations
We torched whatever credibility we had left on human rights issues by arming Israel while they carried out a genocide when Biden was president
the integrity of elections
Republican led states passed tons of voter suppression laws while Biden was in the White House
the actual health if the nation
See my comment about the destruction of civil rights
Which has all happened despite me voting for them for the last 25 years
Bro wat.
Them winning makes it harder for the Chuck Schumer’s of the world to come up with excuses for caving to Republicans. Simply electing anyone with a (D) behind their name isn’t sufficient, but it is a necessary step one of unfucking the country.
Counterpoint: John Fetterman
Counterpoint: Kirsten Sinema
Counterpoint: Joe Manchin
Counterpoint: Joe Lieberman
Yeah, fair, but those are all step 2 problems. Like, Fetterman has been infuriatingly awful, but Dr. Oz would have been at least as bad.
We never get to step 2 because like clockwork they lose seats every couple years and we need those assholes just to keep a slim majority.
It’s been this way my entire life. Step 2 will never come.
You should have voted blue because this time it would have worked for sure!
Who are the facists in this context? Shubert or the guys he’s voting with? Asking as im not based in us
Schubert
Thanks. Im not very good with names
Schumer is a Democrat so based on the context they’re referring to the Republican fascists
What an irrational response that would be. I see this as even more reason to not be ambivalent.
Voters aren’t rational, and what Schumer is doing doesn’t instill faith or loyalty in the party. Two things Democrats need to motivate their base.
I think you’re missing their point. They aren’t saying they are going to do that, or that it’s a good idea, they’re saying enough people are going to react that way for it to be a problem. It’s not good enough to be correct, you need to be convincing. Just because I can hold my nose and vote for the lesser evil doesn’t mean I’m not concerned that not everyone will.
I agree, but we should all be very well aware that most voters are going to act irrationally and conduct ourselves accordingly. Any logical observer could see that the Dems candidate wasn’t as bad as the Repubs in 2016 and 2024, and look at all the good that did us.
It is stupid to threaten the GOP with a shutdown.
The GOP is already trying to dismantle the government. A shutdown would just help them do it faster.
Holding up makes the dismantling a legal affair to be solved in the Courts.
This CR in Sec. 1113 (b) allows the President to begin sequestration, which basically renders all those legal cases moot.
This CR as is is the sole thing Trump needs to avoid any more legal cases related to firing whoever he wants and shutting down whichever department he feels like.
Section 1113 of the CR just basically says that if the President gets rid of someone under sequestration then the budget automatically adjusts to match no need to pass another budget, no need for Congress to get involved.
The Democrats could argue for this to be removed to keep the cases in the Courts, but once this passes with this language, none of those Court cases matter.
Well they’ll matter in that the cases will establish that they couldn’t be fired back in February but with the new law they can now be fired. So the cases will actually go on but to basically argue over how to pay the employees for those four or so weeks that they weren’t legally fired.
Trump has been ignoring the courts this whole time.
If a shutdown would leave dismantling of the government up to the courts then that sounds like exactly what Trump wants.
It’s a delaying tactic. If the government shuts down, nothing can move forward. They can’t fire people and continue destroying offices because those employees all get paid through the shutdown but nobody can do any work. Any of the paperwork involved - pink slips, etc. can’t go through because there’s nobody there to send them or even read the emails.
If a shutdown helped the Republicans, then that’s what they would’ve been going for in the first place.
Every extra day it takes them is a day where things haven’t gotten worse for everyone and an extra day for the already fracturing Krasnov administration to continue to fall apart and eat itself.
The courts are fighting back. A lot of people fired by Musky are getting thier jobs back. The executive orders are being challenged and revoked. Trump and Company have been using a gatling gun of disorder, but it is being countered.
A shutdown would just help them do it faster.
If this were true GOP lawmakers would be pushing for a shutdown themselves.
I think the most honest answer is nobody knows what would happen after a shutdown with this administration because they’ve just been making up federal law as they go this whole time anyway, but really the fact that Schumer and Fetterman want this bill to pass while Sanders Warren and AOC want it to fail should be all you need to know to know.
This Nazi run government has to be shutdown period.
if the cr passes then the administration will have a substantial slush fund from the departments and agencies that have been scuttled with which to do whatever they want with. a shutdown is really bad but the other options are worse. this is harm reduction
Silly goose, only progressives have to vote for harm reduction. Liberals can just go along with it.
I don’t like Schumer, or anyone in Democratic leadership, honestly, but I want people to think through how a government shutdown would go. A shutdown would almost immediately be felt by many people, as services stop, federal buildings and parks close, and people stop getting paid. These are all things people don’t like, and they are also all things the Trump Admin are trying to do, despite being deeply unpopular.
A government shutdown right now because the Democrats blocked a spending bill would be met with wall to wall coverage in the corporate media about the Democrats blocking the bill. The Trump Admin and the right-wing media would then have carte blanche to blame the Democrats for everything bad about the economy that’s coming down the pipe due to Trump’s disastrous policies. Unemployment? Closed offices? National Parks closed? Checks not coming in? The Democrats did that!
Right now, Trump and the right-wing media don’t have a leg to stand on when they try to blame anyone but themselves. A government shutdown right now would give their lies plausibility that currently does not exist, and it would be unlikely to extract any concessions from Republicans on this bill anyway, because many of them want the government to shut down, in some cases permanently.
Your description of what would happen already happened. We’re past any illusion that the Republican party gives a rat’s ass about the nation, constitution, or common decency. Either way is a path through hell, but at least the Democrats could have had moral high ground and an ability to get citizens rally around our last hope for non-violent options. That is shot to hell now.
The Democrats should negotiate things they want I. Exchange for their votes. If the reps don’t want to play ball then they can pass their own bills. Blaming the Dems now is fucking nonsense and if Americans don’t realize that we deserve to rot.
A shutdown would almost immediately be felt by many people, as services stop, federal buildings and parks close, and people stop getting paid. These are all things people don’t like, and they are also all things the Trump Admin are trying to do, despite being deeply unpopular
Yeah, so the average voter is going to blame the Trump administration for what they feel because it’s going to feel like a continuation of their previous well publicized efforts
The Trump Admin and the right-wing media would then have carte blanche to blame the Democrats
Democratic lawmakers are not incapable of responding to that bullshit and pointing out how the economy crashing and essential government services being interrupted has been going on for weeks prior to the Republicans failing to keep the government they have total control over open
A government shutdown right now would give their lies plausibility that currently does not exist
No it wouldn’t, that’s only going to work on people who were looking for a reason to vindicate Republicans anyway and who have never and will never support the Democratic party. The average voter who spends five minutes a week tops following the news is going to say “Government not doing stuff? That sounds like Republicans.”
You’re right. The GOP wants to blame the democrats for the economy and dismantle the government at the same time.
A government shutdown would let them do both.
That’s probably why the bad actors on lemmy are pushing for a shutdown.
THey’re going to do that anyway, make them grovel for it
What sort of topsy turvy logic are you going for here? That the best way the Democrats can oppose the Republicans is by giving them exactly what they want and voting to confirm all their nominees and legislation? The Democrats have been close to useless as an opposition party so far, because they can’t bring themselves to oppose anything in case it makes them look bad to Trump supporters.
Besides that, moderate lawmakers like Hickenlooper and Ossoff have come out against Schumer on this, alongside people like Sanders Warren AOC etc. Acting like this is just " bad actors on Lemmy " is nonsense.
If Warren, AOC, and Bernie bolt, Let’s Do This.
The GOP is actively trying to dismantle the government.
A government shutdown is in itself a method of dismantling the government.
It’s literally giving the GOP what they want.
That’s not topsy turvy logic. That’s common sense.
Unfortunately, I think this may be correct.
