You can hate someone and still agree when they say something you agree with. If you dismiss a point just because of who said it, you’re showing you don’t actually care whether the point is true.”
If you just hate someone cause “oh they’re on the other side from me” does that really make you better than the other side who does the same?
Edit: this seems to be setting a lot of people off, I consider myself a fairly logical person. If you can explain to me, in good faith and with a calm disposition, why should I think differently, I will listen.
It depends. If they are an obvious grifter like MTG, hell yes I’m better than her. She has shown no contrition, no growth, no regret for the horrible policies she’s pushed forth. This is not a person who wants to genuinely make the country a better place, she’s a piece of shit who senses a better deal elsewhere.
This is like seeing a person willing to cheat with you and thinking, “I should start a genuine relationship with this person; they would surely never cheat on me.”
Okay let’s remove the “are we better than her” part, do you think that her stance here is entirely null and void because of the person she is? Would you change your mind if Bernie said it?
I’m not saying you have to start a relationship with her or start pioneering her cause, but if you’re going to discount a point you might agree with because of the person, what’s the point of making policies in the first place? We might as well hit full send and send politics to where I see it going, just put the candidates on a tinder like app with no more than a tweet of what they’re about, have them put on a red or blue tie and be done with it. No need for nuance, just vote based on looks, hell, we don’t even need the blurbs at the bottom.
You do not, under any circumstance, gotta hand it to Hitler. The nuance here is that MTG is a piece of shit. We must be intolerant of the intolerant because welcoming them and accepting them society provides an opening for them to spread their anti social beliefs. Before they are welcomed into polite society, they must show that they have changed and are compatible with polite society.
It is ok to have disagreements with others, so long as the disagreements aren’t something like, “we disagree if gay people should be allowed to get married”. People who hold such anti social beliefs must not be allowed a foothold. People like MTG use the more sane policies as cover to infiltrate and spread their actual beliefs, like Jewish Space Lasers.
You are too focused on the trees to notice that the forest is garbage. The nuance here is not that MTG has some good takes. The nuance here is that MTG will say and do anything to advance her anti social agenda.
My man, if I’m focused on the trees you’re sitting there staring at a leaf. I feel like I’ve been pretty on point about what I’m trying to say here. You can agree with something someone you hate said. If you can’t, you’re letting emotions take over logic
I appreciate it but Im also highly aware that nobody is going to be changing their mind in this discussion. I just hate to see a smart place like Lemmy devolve into what I would call “dumb politics”
She created this problem, and she’s pretending to be some voice of reason now that it suits her ambitions. She’s welcome to change sides - that’s her prerogative - but nobody owes her respect or forgiveness. She has been legitimately heinous and bares massive responsibility for the suffering the world is going through today. She wants redemption and welcome into a position of respect among reasonable people after blaming wildfires on Jewish space lasers and working against climate action. She’s not entitled to a leadership position in the fight against Trump and I refuse to acknowledge her.
If she’s going to go back to pulling maga bullshit because people remember things she said and did and hold her to account for it? Then she was never worth having as an ally in the first place.
“On the other side from me”? Oh please, she is a transphobic piece of shit whose “side” wants me dead or worse. I do not give a shit what she says. She is not, has never been, and never will be a leftist just because she said some mean shit about trump once.
Whose talking about switching sides? Sir or madam, i keep repeating this point. You can acknowledge you agree with something someone said even if you hate them. If you can’t, you’re prioritizing thinking emotionally instead of logically
Idk your point. Israel is the linchpin in all of this. They are the keystone of fascism. Also the ones with blackmail on all of our politicians, business leaders, academic douchebags in the ivy league, and so forth. They are the key to all of this, and Epstein is the key to razing and burning the oligarchy.
Israel didn’t make MAGA and fascism has existed in America since before the modern state of Israel even existed. You should really read something like Lies My Teacher Told Me if you’re unfamiliar with that aspect of American history and believe it needed outside interference to manifest here.
You can also hate someone and just give no fucks whether they are right or wrong or are in agreement with. That bitch should get cancelled already. I dunno what PR firm she hired, but they must be worth it.
If you just hate someone cause “oh they’re on the other side from me” does that really make you better than the other side who does the same?
No. OP clearly stated because ‘all the hateful shit she has said.’
I’ve seen piles of shit that are better than MTG. And occasionally I wasn’t looking I stepped in a pile of it.
Let me ask this, if she said “hitler is bad” do you write that off or agree with it? Of course this is a fictional, absurd example. But this is the best way I can just lay out my argument with an example.
I believe you should be able to take a statement like “trump is insane” and agree with it, without getting hung up on who said it, regardless of them being a piece of shit.
But I also understand these are intense times, and maybe everyone doesn’t separate the voice from the speaker like I do.
You’re assuming she’s genuine, when her entire history warns against making that assumption. If she wants to prove her worth, she can leave the Republican party, declare herself an independent, and caucus with the Democrats.
She won’t, because it’s all a grift and she’s hoping to con all the people who are ok with looking the other way at child rape, but not at rising oil prices.
I assume that she’s seen how Trump supporters treat Republicans who dare to contradict their Dear Leader, and she simply decided that she’d rather step away from Congress and potentially receive fewer death threats. Nobody knows the lengths a cult will go to better than someone who has just escaped.
If I’m being extra generous, I could say maybe she knows what happens to representatives who don’t toe the party line, so she stepped down to avoid cuts to her constituents’ services. But that might be giving her too much credit.
If she wants to prove her worth, she can leave the Republican party, declare herself an independent, and caucus with the Democrats.
How about, if she wants to prove her worth, she can retire from politics forever, give all she has to the poor, and spend her weekends volunteering at soup kitchens.
I’m not opposed to forgiveness or giving people second chances, unless that second chance means putting them in a leadership role after they’ve already fucked up in such a role. At that point, it’s just failing to hold powerful people accountable. Are there not enough people in the country to find someone who doesn’t have a track record like hers?
This is short sighted.
You can hate someone and still agree when they say something you agree with. If you dismiss a point just because of who said it, you’re showing you don’t actually care whether the point is true.”
If you just hate someone cause “oh they’re on the other side from me” does that really make you better than the other side who does the same?
Edit: this seems to be setting a lot of people off, I consider myself a fairly logical person. If you can explain to me, in good faith and with a calm disposition, why should I think differently, I will listen.
It depends. If they are an obvious grifter like MTG, hell yes I’m better than her. She has shown no contrition, no growth, no regret for the horrible policies she’s pushed forth. This is not a person who wants to genuinely make the country a better place, she’s a piece of shit who senses a better deal elsewhere.
This is like seeing a person willing to cheat with you and thinking, “I should start a genuine relationship with this person; they would surely never cheat on me.”
Okay let’s remove the “are we better than her” part, do you think that her stance here is entirely null and void because of the person she is? Would you change your mind if Bernie said it?
I’m not saying you have to start a relationship with her or start pioneering her cause, but if you’re going to discount a point you might agree with because of the person, what’s the point of making policies in the first place? We might as well hit full send and send politics to where I see it going, just put the candidates on a tinder like app with no more than a tweet of what they’re about, have them put on a red or blue tie and be done with it. No need for nuance, just vote based on looks, hell, we don’t even need the blurbs at the bottom.
You do not, under any circumstance, gotta hand it to Hitler. The nuance here is that MTG is a piece of shit. We must be intolerant of the intolerant because welcoming them and accepting them society provides an opening for them to spread their anti social beliefs. Before they are welcomed into polite society, they must show that they have changed and are compatible with polite society.
It is ok to have disagreements with others, so long as the disagreements aren’t something like, “we disagree if gay people should be allowed to get married”. People who hold such anti social beliefs must not be allowed a foothold. People like MTG use the more sane policies as cover to infiltrate and spread their actual beliefs, like Jewish Space Lasers.
You are too focused on the trees to notice that the forest is garbage. The nuance here is not that MTG has some good takes. The nuance here is that MTG will say and do anything to advance her anti social agenda.
My man, if I’m focused on the trees you’re sitting there staring at a leaf. I feel like I’ve been pretty on point about what I’m trying to say here. You can agree with something someone you hate said. If you can’t, you’re letting emotions take over logic
I am with you
I appreciate it but Im also highly aware that nobody is going to be changing their mind in this discussion. I just hate to see a smart place like Lemmy devolve into what I would call “dumb politics”
Too late, I just got here admittedly but it has been not what I would call intelligent. Better than Reddit. Like hepatitis is better than aids
We are not led, we are disunited, the enemy is organized. Until that changes we lose.
Well said brother
MTG is a politician, not a logician, and people’s responses to her bigoted ass don’t have to be restrained to pure logic.
All you control in this life is your own response to stimuli, MTG isn’t making you be illogical, you are.
Well, Hitler wanted every German to do sports and be fit and was against smoking. He was a monster but in those things he was on the right side.
Yes, actually. 100% I think that.
Do you not understand the fact that a grifter or opportunist saying something makes it completely meaningless?
Like, hell, do you look at stuff like JD Vance saying “If you want your kid to go and fight in some stupid globalist war, vote for Joe Biden” and not understand that he’s completely full of shit?
I understand that you think that, but I have a feeling I’m less emotionally invested in this than you
Lmao what? 😂
Secret cheat code to win any argument: just say the other person is being emotional.
Who’s trying to win? I assumed we were just debating
And you think calling people emotional contributes to debate?
I said you seemed emotionally invested compared to me, you took it personally
Who’s doing that?
She created this problem, and she’s pretending to be some voice of reason now that it suits her ambitions. She’s welcome to change sides - that’s her prerogative - but nobody owes her respect or forgiveness. She has been legitimately heinous and bares massive responsibility for the suffering the world is going through today. She wants redemption and welcome into a position of respect among reasonable people after blaming wildfires on Jewish space lasers and working against climate action. She’s not entitled to a leadership position in the fight against Trump and I refuse to acknowledge her.
If she’s going to go back to pulling maga bullshit because people remember things she said and did and hold her to account for it? Then she was never worth having as an ally in the first place.
“On the other side from me”? Oh please, she is a transphobic piece of shit whose “side” wants me dead or worse. I do not give a shit what she says. She is not, has never been, and never will be a leftist just because she said some mean shit about trump once.
Whose talking about switching sides? Sir or madam, i keep repeating this point. You can acknowledge you agree with something someone said even if you hate them. If you can’t, you’re prioritizing thinking emotionally instead of logically
You are also going to lose if you reject allies, with your enemies whispering whom to reject.
Israel is the devil, and the ledt lets them play us like a fiddle. Off of each other.
‘Allies’ is an interesting word choice considering what an over the top anti-queer bigot MTG is.
Israel is the devil.
Fuck all to do with whether the American politician this post is about is a piece of shit.
Idk your point. Israel is the linchpin in all of this. They are the keystone of fascism. Also the ones with blackmail on all of our politicians, business leaders, academic douchebags in the ivy league, and so forth. They are the key to all of this, and Epstein is the key to razing and burning the oligarchy.
Israel didn’t make MAGA and fascism has existed in America since before the modern state of Israel even existed. You should really read something like Lies My Teacher Told Me if you’re unfamiliar with that aspect of American history and believe it needed outside interference to manifest here.
When the other side are discount nazis, yes it does make me better than them.
You can also hate someone and just give no fucks whether they are right or wrong or are in agreement with. That bitch should get cancelled already. I dunno what PR firm she hired, but they must be worth it.
No. OP clearly stated because ‘all the hateful shit she has said.’
I’ve seen piles of shit that are better than MTG. And occasionally I wasn’t looking I stepped in a pile of it.
Let me ask this, if she said “hitler is bad” do you write that off or agree with it? Of course this is a fictional, absurd example. But this is the best way I can just lay out my argument with an example.
I believe you should be able to take a statement like “trump is insane” and agree with it, without getting hung up on who said it, regardless of them being a piece of shit.
But I also understand these are intense times, and maybe everyone doesn’t separate the voice from the speaker like I do.
You’re assuming she’s genuine, when her entire history warns against making that assumption. If she wants to prove her worth, she can leave the Republican party, declare herself an independent, and caucus with the Democrats.
She won’t, because it’s all a grift and she’s hoping to con all the people who are ok with looking the other way at child rape, but not at rising oil prices.
I assume that she’s seen how Trump supporters treat Republicans who dare to contradict their Dear Leader, and she simply decided that she’d rather step away from Congress and potentially receive fewer death threats. Nobody knows the lengths a cult will go to better than someone who has just escaped.
If I’m being extra generous, I could say maybe she knows what happens to representatives who don’t toe the party line, so she stepped down to avoid cuts to her constituents’ services. But that might be giving her too much credit.
How about, if she wants to prove her worth, she can retire from politics forever, give all she has to the poor, and spend her weekends volunteering at soup kitchens.
I’m not opposed to forgiveness or giving people second chances, unless that second chance means putting them in a leadership role after they’ve already fucked up in such a role. At that point, it’s just failing to hold powerful people accountable. Are there not enough people in the country to find someone who doesn’t have a track record like hers?
Oh I’m right there with you. She’s completely untrustworthy.