besides all that, she has an odd sense of humor but is really nice. not only this, but has been my friend since middle school, and i dated her in sixth grade. she has always been christian, but she’s practicing it more and feels like she has to “repent for her sins” and whatever.
she used to be a lesbian and then genderfluid but now she’s cishet and idk if she’ll understand what i’m going through, i also hope she didn’t decide this due to christianity.
and the gender identity and pronouns jokes feel weird to me as an enby and a lesbian 😓
will this end up actually bad for me like those superevangelicals?
Just so you know, someone isn’t “really nice” if they make jokes like that. Maybe she used to be nice, but she isn’t acting that way now.
I’m not sure how old you are, but it sounds like you’re both still teenagers or maybe young adults. People are trying to figure themselves out at that time, and sometimes what they try out is edgelord (especially when the edgelords are gaining political power). She may be testing boundaries of what is socially acceptable, in which case it’s in her best interests as well as yours to gently push back against this kind of behavior (or more forcefully later if she doesn’t take a hint).
Something like, “hey, it makes me uncomfortable when you make those ‘identify as’ jokes. You know I’m nonbinary and that sort of humor makes me feel like you don’t respect me. I fully support your identity, including your faith, and as your friend I hope you would do the same for me.”
Even if you are 1-on-1 for that chat, she is almost certainly going to respond negatively to that, so I would drop it there, but be prepared to remind her that you don’t like it later. Ideally after some reflection she wakes up and realizes she’s causing harm to your friendship, but be prepared to break it off entirely with her if she doesn’t want to treat you with respect.
To be clear, this is Lemmy where we don’t feel the effects of your decisions.
I used to make these jokes as a teenager in church and I didn’t know how offensive and misguided I was. It might be worth having a conversation with them, nobody is one demensional and incapable of change. If she reacts well with not only her words but her actions (like she takes it down or publicly apologizes or wtv) then maybe you could trust her. If she doesn’t react well then you should probably re-evaluate what this relationship is for and if bigotry is worth it. It can be hard but you can find accepting friends online and in person, you just need to put in the effort.
Tldr; it’s a personal thing about whether they’re actually willing to respect you by changing their behavior or if you’re willing to deal with it bc this relationship is important enough.
Have you talked to her and told her those kinds of “jokes” make you uncomfortable? If you have and she pushes back, then I think it’s fair to question if you can be friends with someone who continues acting disrepectful even when asked not to.
But if you haven’t brought it up, maybe it’s possible she just needs someone to call her out and snap her out of it. Give her a chance to see if she can grow and change.
I wonder if she’s making those “jokes” because she’s overcompensating, because she’s hanging out with shitty people, or both?
Whatever the reason, I think talking to her is the way to go.
Yes, you’re going to run inti some serious heartache. Either now or later. She sounds like she still doesn’t know who she is if she’s flitting about like that. But the problem is that she’s now being influenced by hateful people. You can try correcting her, telling her not to make those jokes or that those jokes are mean and rude. Point out that those jokes are about people in similar positions to yourself. Maybe even saying “Jesus wouldn’t say that.” or something similar. But if she responds poorly, I’d personally rather be alone than around someone with ideology dangerous to my existence. She’s not nice, she’s insensitive, and being influenced by mean spirited people that may or may not be the type to join on a public lynching.
I can’t see any good that could come from it.
At the very least, cutting contact will help your mental health, but it also might teach your friend that those jokes hurt, and that her new choices have consequences.
cutting contact will help your mental health
I keep seeing this as self-help advice and it’s completely wrong in my opinion, both for a person in question and for all trans people around them. On societal level, if nobody engages one another things will just slide even worse. And on a personal level, you don’t always get to choose open-minded friends. If you just push everyone away waiting for more compatible people, you’ll be alone. Poptimism really oversells a strong individual standing alone in a world of bigots.
it also might teach your friend that those jokes hurt, and that her new choices have consequences.
A better way is to not cut the person out but explain it to them, over and over. You cut them out, the lesson they’ll probably learn is that they lost a friend to a biblical plague of gayness or something. Engaging is hard, but unless you try, you’re doing nothing.
I won’t argue with what you’re saying, because it’s not wrong, but not everyone is able to nor should become an ambassador for their “group”.
If you’re a timid person who doesn’t like confrontation, you’re probably not going to speak up every time she says something hateful, and you might find yourself laughing along with hurtful jokes when you don’t want to. Especially when it’s an old friend.
Loud, obnoxious, combative people, may seem up to the task, but are more than likely going to piss people off and create a bad association with “the group” for others.
Educating friends to become better allies is great, but, it’s also not everyone’s responsibility. There have been many people in my life, that caused me more pain than joy, and I always just tried to win them over, which only caused me more pain. Within the last few years, I started staying away from those people and it has improved my life in every way.
not everyone is able to nor should become an ambassador for their “group”.
it’s also not everyone’s responsibility
I’m not talking about moral duty or responsibility, I’m just saying the outcomes are better for the person doing the choosing if they engage with the world around them instead of shut it out.
you might find yourself laughing along with hurtful jokes when you don’t want to. Especially when it’s an old friend.
If it’s an old friend, then you especially need to make some effort, for your own sake if not theirs. People are using “nazi” and “bigot” as thought-terminating cliches, but in many cases you can have a normal conversation with the person you’d call a nazi for their online output about things not related to your or their identity or politics. You can learn woodworking from a nazi and go on to make furniture decorated with a hammer&sickle instead of a swastika. It’s an extreme example, perhaps, but in my view it’s also really extreme to peddle this extreme misanthropy as advice to people on the internet you don’t know about their friends you also don’t know. “Engage with them and try” seems to me like less of an error these days if we’re talking generalizations then “cut them off”.
I’m just saying the outcomes are better for the person doing the choosing if they engage with the world around them instead of shut it out.
To be clear, I mean removing specific people from your life, not becoming a hermit and only associating with people who are just like you.
I assure you, my outcomes were MUCH better when I removed myself from toxicity.
Your advice sounds like what I would have typed twenty years ago, when I thought I could fix people. Maybe I’ve learned better since then, or maybe I’m just old and jaded now. I do appreciate your optimism, and don’t want to change that in you.
Everybody is different. Some friends can be saved, some can’t. By sharing our own experiences, we give options for OP to consider. There is no “always best” method.
Best of luck to all of you, but also be aware that it’s really easy to catch and spread the plague, especially while trying to cure it.
I’m an ex-fundigelical, and while I understand the desire to keep old friendships, the reality is that people can change; even worse, it can be due to getting caught up in weird cults that demand loyalty above reason and sense.
Whether it will end up bad for you isn’t something anybody can predict, but it sounds like she’s not someone who will be supportive of who you are (or at the very least, other queer people like you). Most fundies think you can “pray the gay away,” so I would suspect it’s only a matter of time until she starts treating you like a religious project and not like a respected friend.
Only you can decide if you think it’s worth continuing to invest in the relationship. If it’s something you truly value, and you think she’d listen, it might be worth having a talk with your friend and telling them that the things they say and do are hurtful. If she doesn’t care, then that kind of tells you where her loyalties lie.
It depends on who your other friends are. It doesn’t reflect well on you overall, I’d say, buy at the end of the day, having self respect means walking away when someone is this needlessly abrasive
Actions speak louder than words. If she is nice and genuinely is a good friend what she says shouldn’t matter.
But she’s not nice.
I trust ops experience more than ur opinion ngl
OP is biased as hell.
, i also hope she didn’t decide this due to christianity.
99% likelihood that it is.
Do you dislike hearing the jokes? Do you tell her that you don’t like her being shitty towards people like you?
If you don’t like it and aren’t willing to speak up about it then she will most likely continue leaning in even harder over time due to not getting pushback and getting reinforcement from whatever led her down this path. It isn’t your job to keep her from becoming a terrible person, and if you don’t it is most likely going to get worse over time. In that case it would be better to move on so that you can have better friends.
I have never seen anyone who started open minded that leaned into bigotry turn it around due to friends they already had. They only ever turned around when they realized their bigoted friends were terrible people and regretting driving away the people who actually cared about the.
This is always a personal choice.
Bear in mind you do yourself a disservice by believing rag headlines (common dreams, daily beast, new republic, etc) in an echo chamber. Talking to people who don’t agree with you will tell you more about present politics, in terms of what the “other guy” is thinking. It’s also an opportunity to pick things apart in chill discussions and find the point where you digress instead of assuming.
Flippant remarks are typically engaged in areas people haven’t spent time or mental resources on. They’re more likely to be verbal passcodes for a social group. You could find out. Where the jokes stop is usually the more viscerally believed area.
Or maybe that’s just me who has an interest in that sort of thing. That said, you can encounter people you start to sway with reasonable discussion based in listening to everything they want to say who then get angry, yell that they can’t talk to you any more, who then simply go away.
To be fair I have all the energy in the world for strangers because they’re often 1-4 encounters and done. In my personal life, I have the energy and wherewithal to maintain 1, and that is probably only because they’re my closest genetic link.
“Should I still be friends with my ex?”
Forget the rest. She’s your ex, and for that reason alone, no. There’s a reason she’s your ex. Keeping her around just makes it harder for you to get over her.
All that other stuff is just complications on top of the fact that she’s your ex.
I don’t think 6th grade “dating” needs to follow the same rules as adult dating.
I don’t think that’s a great rule even as adults
That’s bullshit, I’m good friends with several ex-partners. Might not work for some people, but definitely not a general rule.
I agree. A person can wish their ex the best, but cutting contact altogether is typically the best path. Some folks are able to make it work to keep a friendship, but those seem to be outliers.
the reason was that she wanted to stay friends after losing interest in me and she liked another girl, so idk
She’s keeping you on the hook. She also doesn’t sound very stable.
What do you gain from keeping this person around? Never mind her, what’s in this for you personally?
For me, this relationship would have run its course at this point, and I’d move on altogether.
This turns the debate about whether a person who converted to Judaism can start making Jewish jokes on its head. Can ex-lesbians make LGBTQ jokes?
“And this offends you as a Jewish person?”
If she used to be gay and is now straight, wouldn’t she just be bisexual? Or am i misunderstanding?
Edit: I’m not well versed in this space and meant no disrespect by the question. I’m genuinely curious.
If you used to be straight and are now gay, would that make you bi?
I’m not smart enough to answer this question, but that would be where I’d start.
If you accept someone unilaterally, your sending the message that they matter more.
i also hope she didn’t decide this due to christianity.
Why not? Her choice if she wants to follow her beliefs.
will this end up actually bad for me like those superevangelicals?
I’m gonna go against the hivemind here; probably not. A lot of the close-minded Christians I find personally are people who haven’t struggled in the past. I don’t think someone who used to be at odds with her gender identity and sexuality will be extra malicious to the point of harming you or wishing harm.
To me it’s kind of like a gambler or a drug addict: You don’t agree with their lifestyle or think it’s moral, but you don’t want any harm to come to them. So I don’t think you’re in any risk.
I used to be in a similar situation to her, questioning my gender and sexuality before I doubled down on my faith, and I’m happy and comfortable now. I still have friends from the lgbtq+ community. I don’t hate them at all. I still treat them equally as my friend. Sure, as a Christian, I desire everyone to seek forgiveness of their sins because my belief is that’s what’s best for them, but that’s between them and God. If they ever have any questions or objections, I’m happy to answer. But if they are firm in their unbelief, then I’ll still be their friend. I completely reject Christian Nationalism, even though a lot of my ethical opinions are shaped by my beliefs.
However,
As another commenter said, they recommend that you aren’t friends with your ex. I have never had a friendship with an ex end well either. But again, you said long-time friend, so if it’s working, then it’s working.
I wouldn’t let your distrust of her due to her beliefs get in the way of you two. Generally, people who disagree should still be able to get along.
Now, this is important:
I’d also say that if you drop her because of her beliefs, it might make her feel like that she cannot trust lgbtq+ people and that she might see it as a cult which a lot of conservative commentators say. Right now you have a good position to be a counterbalance to that. The internet is designed to push us into echo chambers and society is trying to push echo chambers as the right thing. People are turning against each other because of beliefs. You actually won’t be much better than her if you push her away for her beliefs. Unless your aim is to deconvert her, you should stick around so she has somebody on the other side of the opinion. I have had people approach me in Christian circles ridiculing trans people, but from the experience I have from having trans friends, I was able to speak up on the issue and water down their opinion on it. If trans people completely avoided me, I could have even gotten sucked into the rumours. But I have trans friends and I know that they aren’t all groomers trying to inject my children with HRT.
You said she is really nice. That’s what matters.
Now, for the jokes, if they actually upset you, maybe you should talk about them. If she can at least respect your concern, then it’s definitely a friendship worth keeping around.
This is a very thoughtful reply. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
